Jesse asks…
It’s been my experience at my big corporate employer that no one ever gets fired for poor performance. Is this common at all big corporations? Is it because they don’t want to deal with lawsuits? Is it just my employer?
Here’s my take. Most companies and HR departments are afraid to fire employees for valid reasons.
- Employees will sue you.
- Firing is easy (sorta) and employers may not have given their workers a fair chance to succeed.
- Many managers who want to fire employees are bad managers and ought to be fired themselves.
I will say this much: I have a low tolerance for bad managers and stupid employees who game the system. Throughout my career, I have fired poor performers. I always had a great team of employment lawyers and broad authority to offer money in exchange for a signed release & waiver.
That’s right. I’m the kind of HR woman who pays people to go away.
Under my watch, poorly performing employees left with some dignity. It’s a good way to turn an otherwise difficult & unproductive situation into an encounter with a positive ending.
You suck at your job? You’re not happy? We’re not happy, either, and we made a mistake in hiring you in the first place. Here’s some money. Let’s all get on with our lives.
Anyone else have opinions or experiences to share? Is your HR department risk averse? Does it take forever to fire an employee at your office?
Laurie Ruettimann: Team Building is for Suckers and Punk Rock HR is licensed under a
Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
My last job where I worked full-time (a very large research university), they would not fire poor performers (PPs), short of them doing something so egregious like stealing a computer or downloading child porn (this actually happened) or getting physically violent or threatening (this happened too). They made you jump through so many hoops as a manager through “performance management” of PPs, that most of us just got exhausted and totally demoralized by the process, and waited for the person either to leave or jump to another department.
I gave one PP a poor reference when she applied to another department (aka “being honest”), but realized being dishonest and foisting her off on another unsuspecting poor soul was going to be the only way to finally get rid of her. I felt terrible about finally doing this, and knew it was wrong, but found out it was SOP at our university for dealing with PPs. Often PPs knew exactly how to game the system, and wound up on their feet. I was in total awe of them, really. (The good thing is, all my other employees were wonderful.) And every department had their war stories about notorious PPs they tried to get rid of, or were stuck with. Even when they sometimes managed to finally fire them, the managers were left battle-scarred after an almost two-year long process.
The flip side of this is that many of the bosses of the departments and institutes on campus were headed by tenured profs and dictators, I mean directors, who had been there for years. Some of them were incredibly bad news – abusive, insecure, narcissistic, and had no managing skills to save their life. And you couldn’t touch them with a ten-foot pole, and everyone, including HR, readily acknowledged this.
So what you often had happen was that those PPs who knew how to game the system stayed and rotated through the university, and many good employees, because of the abusive behavior and incompetent management of the higher-ups, eventually quit or were desperately unhappy and frustrated.
Sorry for the long post, but I am still feeling the negative effects of this dysfunctional and sucky system.
Take forever? Try being sentimental and worrying how the person would ‘feel.’ Management here has got a good heart- but barely any teeth and while I understand you’re concerned about the well-being of someone- if you’re not performing- you’re not performing; if you’re breaking the rules- you’re breaking the rules and after all avenues of reconciliation have been exhausted- it’s time to leave.
The only tricky thing about paying someone to go away (the veritable “let’s break this off, neither of us are into it”) is that it can give a poor message to those employees who are working very hard for your company. They see that bad performance/behavior is rewarded while their hard work is simply expected or unnoticed.
Karen – TOTALLY agree! While I understand that the termination of an employee is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly or done flippantly, I think in many cases we have prolonged the inevitable to see if things will turn around because “shes SUCH a sweet girl…”. Sweet as she may be, she’s been an employee with us for three years and is still not “up to speed”. The fact is no one is perfect for every job, every industry, and a bad fit is a problem for the employer AND the employee. Forgive me for sounding like my father (didn’t see THAT one coming) when I say “It’s not personal, it’s business.”
I’ve worked in several environments where people were “turfed” rather than fired. If they were underperforming, they were simply moved to another area. In some cases moving the employee worked, as they did perform better under a new (read “better”) manager. But in about half of the cases, it didn’t work, because we were just shifting a problem from one team to another. I think these types of experiences wrongly shape HR mindsets.
Some HR professionals think about the good of helping an employee perform up to their potential by moving them while never addressing the failures of the manager. Some HR professionals feel that moving a problem, saves them the trouble (and potential legal pitfalls) of firing them.
I think we need to address performance issues quickly and teminate employees when necessary, with no regrets. I also feel that as HR pro’s it is not our job to protect managers that can’t do their jobs and alienate or mismanage their teams. I do a lot of churn analysis and it is easy to see where your week links are. Open feedback from the employees will generally verify this. If they aren’t doing the job get them out. Simple. If they are a revenue generator, but a craptastic manager, let them be an individual contributor, but not a manager.
Most of all, a key competency for HR is fortitude, and you have to have the strength of convictions to be decisive and do whats right. Quit planning your company’s Cinco De Mayo pot luck lunch and get out with your employees and do something!
The only place I have seen this as a problem was at a university (just like unemployed fan). I ran across a few destructive and malicious employees; no one knew what to do with them and no one could trust them to do any kind of work. It seems like the worst performers knew the most lawyers or congressmen (that apparently matters in a public university).
I am not sure what this says about HR, but these people usually ended up in that department. They didn’t add any value, but apparently they were in a place where they couldn’t detract much either. Adding salt to the wound, these people usually made more money than their productive counterparts and their salaries had to be drawn from the last department to touch them (before HR).
By the way, I have never been paid to go away, but I am willing to start!
The great thing about working for smaller employers (under $500 million) is that there’s nowhere to hide. You either work your butt off or you don’t. EVERYONE is aware of your value, and though smaller employers do typically have more of a “family/loyalty” based culture, most small employers I’ve worked with thoroughly get what an insult it is to employees to keep someone who’s not pulling their weight. The employer/employee contract is much more transparent and authentic than it appears to be in larger companies.
I personally have never had a problem firing people, and I believe you can exit them with dignity and respect, get them off payroll, and not give away the farm.
Hunch confirmed. It’s not just my employer.
It has always bothered me that companies will turn a blind eye to poor (or even illegal) performance out of fear of “The Courts and Insinuated Lawsuits.” These companies (specifically, the people who “run” them), are more concerned with CYA than cutting their losses and moving forward. What kills me is when management holds onto the belief that no one will know what’s happening, which itself shows how far removed they are from the actual day-to-day operations – if they paid attention, they’d see that other employees have known about it for months before they did. And we wonder why morale is in the toilet.
Managers who knowingly downloaded porn on their company-provided laptops? Had it. Managers who hire family/spouses/twice-removed cousins who don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground and nearly ran the company into bankruptcy as a direct result of their “business decisions?” Had it. Managers who spend all day working on pet projects that have nothing to do with their actual job at the time? Had it.
No wonder so many workers are disenfranchised about their jobs and their companies. Finding one where management does what it SHOULD and not what the lawyers TELL them to do is like finding a needle in a haystack. And it’s just flat out frustrating for those of us who try to do right, day after day.
I think much of the delay is caused by poor management. Though a lot of it can also be caused by poor HR management as well. Managers don’t typically document anything that they do in regards to disciplinary action or “coaching” sessions. So when they come to you and tell you that they want to fire Jane, the minority female who also happens to be over 40 years old, without any real documentation, you cringe.
All three of the problems you listed are interrelated and start with one common cause: bad (or untrained) managers. This happens to be third on your list, but is the largest contributor. Good managers give their employees a chance to succeed. Good managers will manage bad employees out of the company (severance or not). If all is documented properly, you minimize your risk of a lawsuit. If you still think there is a chance of a lawsuit – throw money at them for the signed release and waiver. Everything starts from having competent managers trained to do their jobs properly. And that applies to the executives as much as it does middle management, if not more.
Ok cultural difference flagged (again)….
Poor performance should not be rewarded. End of. Payment is reward. The sack is not being rewarded. You don’t perform I sack you.
I set targets, I support to achieve them, I offer training but ultimately the contract of employment is that I pay you for your work and your work needs to be of a certain level. If not, give my regards to the revolving door.
You want to take me to Tribunal? Take me. I’ll see you there eye to eye. The next person who then comes along doesn’t feel so confident.
It doesn’t matter what level you are in the company. I’ll be there….
Ross is right. I would even say poor performers drag down the performance of the entire group – or at least the morale. It’s just so easy for everyone else to get resentful. Keeping PPs is a bad business move.
@Franny – I’ve seen this in small organizations plenty of times, and often the PP is related to the business owner!
Good Lord, is workin at an Uni in every country a living hell? I once worked at an Technical Uni, I did not had to put up with crap from co-workers but also with crap from students/PhD Fellows. Because each year only 10 to 8 students got their Masters Degree in this subject. Talking about spoiling people for life..It took one student 12 years to get his degree.
Hayli I’ve seen it at small privately held companies too, I ain’t gonna lie. But the pressure is higher for the person to get on out and the owner either lives with the pressure or takes action. Mostly I’ve seen them eventually take action, even on their own relatives.
I’ve found that the reason some employees seem to hang on long after they should have been fired is because the manager has not been properly documenting or following up on their bad behavior. But there could be a lot of reasons why. It’s hard looking in from the outside of a situation to say this person or that person should be fired. Termination should never be the first choice too. And I approve of paying people to leave, I think it’s a good deal for all involved.
To be fired from the company I work at, you would have to kill the CEO and bend his dead body over a table in the employee cafeteria at lunch and have sex with it.
But then you might just get written up…..
@HRU Would that employee be put on a 30 day performance improvement plan?
@HR Minion I agree, sometimes the documentation isn’t there. When it’s not there, you can either make the manager do his/her job and get the documentation in order or you can be evil (like me) and cite the manager for not having his shit together. That’s what we call a good old fashioned 2-for-1 HR shrewing session, right there. Yup. That’s right.
@Rampancy I love it when universities have such disdain for corporations but use the same corporate performance management systems & theories — but they use it poorly. Ugh!
@Hayli Emotional contagion. I think poor performers carry a virus.
@TheHRD I love it. I’m all for the ass kickings at the tribunal, but sometimes I have better things to do than fight a battle over someone who can’t get their fat ass to work on time. My fat ass is there. Yours should be, too. Here’s a couple thousand bucks. Go figure out your life.
@HRPuter Everything starts from having competent managers trained to do their jobs properly. And that applies to the executives as much as it does middle management, if not more. So smart. So wise. So right. It’s almost like you — as a Human Resources pro — know what you’re doing!!
@Simone Good rant and totally appropriate. We fire so thoughtlessly and it doesn’t carry any weight when we really need to take action.
@Franny All good observations, especially about the “small company” culture. It’s easy to hide when you make bazillions, but it’s tough to hide when you are held accountable for every action and every dollar. It’s a cultural thing — and a mindset.
@guajardoforesight I just had this conversation with a leader I know — and he said, “Crappy performers end up in HR.” This is true. I reported to two VPs who were given HR duties after they failed in finance, administration, and sales. Thanks alot, buddies. Glad we’re the cream of the crap.
@HRPuf Most of all, a key competency for HR is fortitude, and you have to have the strength of convictions to be decisive and do whats right. Is fortitude a synonym for balls? Because HR people need some balls.
@Britney As my friend, Jenn Barnes, reminds me — it’s not FRIEND-business. It’s SHOW-business. Nothing personal.
@Karen This is my paternalistic rant, but I can either run a profitable company or run a therapy office. I’m glad you are with me on this one.
@Underemployed Oh my goodness, you can leave a comment ANY TIME. The good news is that every work environment offers new challenges — and you’ll work somewhere else and it will suck, too, but it a different way. Is that comforting?
Hi Laurie,
Retail being what it is, firing isn’t the problem. Most employees quit before action is taken against them. This means that if line managers don’t perform their due diligence, employees can remain on our payroll for weeks after they’ve left. Fortunately, there’s been significant improvement in this area at the company I work for.
My biggest struggles are similar to most others who posted comments, which is progressive discipline. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve reviewed an employees file and saw up to dozens of documentations for the same policy violation. Managers are uncomfortable and don’t want to be the bad guy.
I worked at a company that actually turned it around. Employee survey results were generally very strong except “we tolerate poor performance”. Whammo. We started terminating people. Just to be clear, this was not taken lightly. I’ve never seen so much hand-holding, preparation and support in my life, as I saw for those first few departures. Huge culture change. It hit the survivors fairly hard… “we don’t do that here”. Guess what? The world didn’t come to a crashing halt. It’s tough but most people get it.
I think Jesse has a point. From my experience poor performers seem to be allowed to just chug along below acceptable levels. HR tends to be aware of these people but for some reason don’t seem to do anything about it. I’m not sure on the reasons, is it too much effort to go through the performance management process? Who knows!
I’m with Laurie, poor performers must be dealt with. Having worked with poor performers before I’ve seen them fail to meet standards yet escape any consequences time and time again. I found it demotivating and it made me question the company I worked for.
As a HR professional one of the things I like to be able to say is that our people have been treated fairly. This applies for poor performers as well. Once identified, poor performers should be consulted with to try and address the issues hence starting the performance management process. We have two outcomes from there. Either they improve their performance or they don’t. If they don’t then they must be moved on.
Unfortunately It seems like some HR people prefer to keep their heads in the sand when it comes to poor performers.
Humor me, but the only time the HR should be afraid to fire people is if those they’re firing are competent and able. If the persons were slacking off, they shouldn’t be intimidated or be afraid to get sued.
@Imee I know, rocket science.
@Adam What frustrates me most is when HR gets all legalistic & stuff when none of the legal stuff really matters. A little knowledge can be a dangerous things, and we can act like lawyers without training. That scares me.
@HR Good Witch Wow, that’s a great story. I love it when something works!!
@CreativeChaos Dude, I’m with you, but I can sympathize with store managers (sorta). That’s a tough job, and who wants to be the bad guy in this economy? It’s hard. (Or are they lazy? Am I being too soft?)
I keep hearing that people sue over being fired. How is thia possible? I was fired because my boss was vindictive after I outperformed him. My attorney said my state is a “right to work state” and anyone can be fired for any reason at all. Is this true or if I can document my situration can I sue to defend myself from my boss taking away my career?
@Tom http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/federal_labor_law/a/constructive_2.htm
Dude, it is in fact a euphemism for balls. I didn’t want to drop that term out of respect for the sensitivity of your feline companions, they should not be exposed to that kind of language
@Laurie Good point, I’ve seen that happen quite a bit, not just in the context of firings either. It seems that a little bit of knowledge can really throw somebody’s decision making process!
I’m sad for PRHR and many of your readers…for the experiences you have had in the business world. I only wish that at some point you could write or read some of this and be as amazed as I am. Really.
I have to follow up because I don’t want that to sound like a smartazz comment. I feel more fortunate than ever to actually have operational partners who consistently say let’s get HR involved. Although at times we don’t agree, they do respect my opinion and they consistently (bc I like to think I taught them that) hold employees accountable. I’m sad that this seems to be exception rather than the rule.
Because this horse isn’t dead enough… I heard about another case where someone was shuffled into an HR position when they were less than qualified. If any of your readers live in the Chicago area, they have probably already heard of the busboy turned HR rep:
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/04/stroger-cousin-resigns-from-county-post.html
Seriously, what is it about HR that makes it a dumping ground for less than qualified employees?
@HRPuf The best HR reps are the ones who have balls to say balls. I’m that kind of rep.
@Stacy Don’t cry for us, Argentina. The truth is we’ll be okay.
@George I’m a Chicagoan (before 312 split with 708 and then went to 847 and then 630 and then the world fell apart). I know the world of the Cook County board, and it’s so bad. Just so, so bad.